Posts by Joe Grundy

76

BBC Radio 4. 14th February 2016. ''Sunday'' program with article on Witnesses and child abuse.

by ThomasCovenant in

the sunday programme investigates allegations that the jehovah's witness ordered the destruction of documents that could be used during the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse.

was this in contravention of section 21 of the inquiries act 2005 which is punishable by imprisonment?.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0709v34.

Joe Grundy

In relation to the destruction of material ...

In relation to 'special procedure material' under PACE 1984, i.e. material (documents etc.) held by a party (e.g. a bank, accountant, whatever) under a duty of confidence, this was only obtainable by an investigator (constable etc) under a Production Order from a Circuit Judge. When making an application for a PO, notice was given to the holder of the material so that they could appear before the judge to argue the PO if they wished. The notice always pointed out to the holder of the material that - having been put on notice about the material - the material was therefore protected from destruction etc. under the law.

My point is this. Lawyers know about this sort of stuff. They will be very well aware of the general notice given by HHJ Goddard even if a specific notice was not served on WTBTS/IBSA UK (and I don't yet know whether a notice was served or not, perhaps WT was too small to be included). But an admitted Solicitor or a Barrister will have no excuse whatsoever.

I suspect that right now there are frenzied communications going back and forth between UK and US (just as I;m sure there were similar communications between Australia and US during the ARC hearings).

We all saw (and the world has seen) what a complete horlicks the WT made of the ARC hearings. The current climate in the UK regarding historic abuse does not bode well for the WT if it continues to obfuscate. I, for one, wouldn't want to be an elder hung out to dry for my actions - or even for shredding my notes.

76

BBC Radio 4. 14th February 2016. ''Sunday'' program with article on Witnesses and child abuse.

by ThomasCovenant in

the sunday programme investigates allegations that the jehovah's witness ordered the destruction of documents that could be used during the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse.

was this in contravention of section 21 of the inquiries act 2005 which is punishable by imprisonment?.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0709v34.

Joe Grundy

Cofty:

Thanks for your kind comment. I am not a qualified lawyer, but in my former career was quite specialised and was able to guide prosecution lawyers, IYSIM. Certainly in conference with barristers, incl. QCs, the discussion was between equals. However, I have been retired for ten years and so my knowledge is not current so I am always open to correction.

I was intrigued by the shambles of evidence that the WT put forward at the ARC hearings. WT knew what they were going to be asked and I would have expected a multi-million dollar corporation to have prepared better. Toole, as the lead lawyer in Australia, was -to be honest - a joke. I have arrested, interviewed and had convicted far sharper lawyers than him in small towns in Wales - and he was national legal adviser!

I don't know whether WT took this on board, but it should have done. The shenanigans surrounding Jackson's appearance before ARC was a big deal. Watch the WT lawyer (the real one, not Toole) squirm and apologise to HHJ explaining that he had been misled by the WY head honchos. This does not happen very often and it really is a big deal.

I wonder whether WT HQ and its lawyers, sitting in the US, have really grasped what they're dealing with. My limited knowledge of US federal law suggests that there is a sort of blanket immunity for religions under the constitution, and certainly the weight of religious vote is important. That's not the case in the UK (or in Australia) and religious organisations generally have no ;get of jail free' card.

More to follow ...

76

BBC Radio 4. 14th February 2016. ''Sunday'' program with article on Witnesses and child abuse.

by ThomasCovenant in

the sunday programme investigates allegations that the jehovah's witness ordered the destruction of documents that could be used during the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse.

was this in contravention of section 21 of the inquiries act 2005 which is punishable by imprisonment?.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0709v34.

Joe Grundy

Phizzy:

Thanks for your comment. I'm sure that my views/opinions/comments are of no more consequence than those of anyone else, but if they come back to me I am happy to back them up with references and examples.

76

BBC Radio 4. 14th February 2016. ''Sunday'' program with article on Witnesses and child abuse.

by ThomasCovenant in

the sunday programme investigates allegations that the jehovah's witness ordered the destruction of documents that could be used during the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse.

was this in contravention of section 21 of the inquiries act 2005 which is punishable by imprisonment?.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0709v34.

Joe Grundy

"remember they are classed as non-profit whch can mean exemption (in tne uk)."

I hadn't considered that and will check. I'm not sure it's correct - think of some of the huge charities in UK, but it's a good point.

76

BBC Radio 4. 14th February 2016. ''Sunday'' program with article on Witnesses and child abuse.

by ThomasCovenant in

the sunday programme investigates allegations that the jehovah's witness ordered the destruction of documents that could be used during the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse.

was this in contravention of section 21 of the inquiries act 2005 which is punishable by imprisonment?.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0709v34.

Joe Grundy

Landy:

There have been huge misunderstandings about DPA (in E&W) since its inception and I spent a lot of time in my former career dealing with them.

The principle is that any organisation which holds searchable identifiable personal data (electronically or in paper indexed systems) about individuals must register with OIC and say why it holds that data and the use to which it will be put. It must hold the data in confidence, ensure that it is correct, and only retain it for the specified purposes and for as long as is required for those purposes, and not disclose it other than for the purposes specified in its registration.

Most (if not all) data holders have a clause which includes disclosure for the purpose of crime prevention and detection, or similar, which applicants sign up to, for example, when they apply for a credit card. It's not actually necessary, because the DPA contains specific provisions on this. Data-holders cannot refuse to provide information required for crime detection and prevention purposes using DPA as a reason.

And, don't forget, the right to confidentiality always belongs to the subject of that data, not the organisation holding it.

Just a thought, I need to wander off and check the OIC site to see whether JW congos are registered ...

76

BBC Radio 4. 14th February 2016. ''Sunday'' program with article on Witnesses and child abuse.

by ThomasCovenant in

the sunday programme investigates allegations that the jehovah's witness ordered the destruction of documents that could be used during the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse.

was this in contravention of section 21 of the inquiries act 2005 which is punishable by imprisonment?.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0709v34.

Joe Grundy

This is the text of an e-mail I have sent to the Inquiry today:

"I never was a Jehovah's Witness, but for various reasons have researched them for several years. I am a retired senior police officer with experience of dealing with child and sexual abuse.

I have followed the progress of the UK Charity Commission investigation and the appeals by WTBTS with interest, as I'm sure you have.

I also followed the proceedings of the Australian Royal Commission, and I'm sure that you are aware of these and the findings so far. What I think is relevant to your inquiry is that all procedures and policies, down to a micro-management level, are directed by the 'Governing Body' in world HQ, New York. National, regional and local bodies have no discretion whatsoever to change those policies. This was made (excruciatingly) clear in sworn testimony before the ARC from JW personnel at all levels from local elders, Australian country leaders, Australian national HQ legal adviser, to a member of the world-wide 'Governing Body' based in New York.

The fact that all procedures and policies are dictated by the world HQ is very relevant to a UK inquiry. If you have the testimony and findings of ARC, it will not have escaped your notice that any suggestions/recommendations as to improvements in procedures would have to be referred to world-wide HQ and the 'Governing Body' before they could be agreed to. This does not bode well. JWs have a policy which they describe as 'Theocratic Warfare' - well documented in their own publications. In essence, this says that they can, and should, not tell the truth to those who they perceive as being in opposition to them. This policy was clearly being used in some sworn evidence given before the ARC.

Regards"

108

Leaked Elder's Video: How to deal with a suicidal sister

by cappytan in

this video will be played at one of the clam meetings in march 2016.. the content is kind of old news because it is a recut version of a previous video produced for the elder's school.

however, it's still significant because it shows that the organization still has dissenting brothers in positions of leadership.. my thanks to the leaker.

feel free to claim credit here.

Joe Grundy

Aude:

Excellent points, but I'd add these:

1. Put off the meeting til 1.30? She needs to talk NOW. Putting her under immense pressure for a future appointment.

2. At her home? Nice place, bet she ran herself ragged with the hoover and baking biscuits (cookies). Not good.

3. She's still dressed up and made up from the KH meeting. (How many suicidal women take the trouble to dress up/make up when they're in the pits?)

My real life experience of desperate suicidal people:

1. They need talking to NOW, right NOW, or f**k off

2. Wherever and whenever we are

3. In pyjamas/underwear/whatever, snot wiped on sleeve, tears have made mascara run, total disregard for personal appearance and surroundings.

That's the reality of the world I live in and the people I met. And they need some personal contact, a hug or a touch or whatever. That's the way we are, us humans.

108

Leaked Elder's Video: How to deal with a suicidal sister

by cappytan in

this video will be played at one of the clam meetings in march 2016.. the content is kind of old news because it is a recut version of a previous video produced for the elder's school.

however, it's still significant because it shows that the organization still has dissenting brothers in positions of leadership.. my thanks to the leaker.

feel free to claim credit here.

Joe Grundy

Muddy Waters:

Thanks for that. I wasn't aware that there was another version. Perhaps my earlier facetious comment that this was a prologue to a porno film wasn't so far off. I can, of course, see that Bro Grinning Sleazeball and his retard sidekick must be so attractive to women that they are hard to resist. I don't want to visualise Bro GS as he drools over a spit roast.

Do JWs have rules as to when comely widows become fair game?

Now I'm becoming facetious so I'll stop before I say something I regret.

108

Leaked Elder's Video: How to deal with a suicidal sister

by cappytan in

this video will be played at one of the clam meetings in march 2016.. the content is kind of old news because it is a recut version of a previous video produced for the elder's school.

however, it's still significant because it shows that the organization still has dissenting brothers in positions of leadership.. my thanks to the leaker.

feel free to claim credit here.

Joe Grundy

Sorry, I'm getting a bit vitriolic about this now.

I've just re-read this from the top of the thread:

Use Insight When Comforting Others: (15 min.) Discussion. Play the video that the elders viewed at a recent Kingdom Ministry School. Then invite comments on how the two brothers were a good example of how to give encouragement when someone expresses anguish over the death of a loved one.

'A good example'? A pair of f**kwit retards is what they are. I can only hope that 'Mary' is a JW trusted to play this character and that her experience in this charade has led her to question this cult. Is she here yet?

108

Leaked Elder's Video: How to deal with a suicidal sister

by cappytan in

this video will be played at one of the clam meetings in march 2016.. the content is kind of old news because it is a recut version of a previous video produced for the elder's school.

however, it's still significant because it shows that the organization still has dissenting brothers in positions of leadership.. my thanks to the leaker.

feel free to claim credit here.

Joe Grundy

I am an integrity keeper, I am an integrity keeper.

In the real world, WTF is an 'integrity keeper? If I saw someone walking down the street chanting this mantra I would think that they were mentally deranged.

If this cult were not so dangerous it would be laughable. Correction, it IS laughable, but I have to stop and think sometimes of the damage it has done and is still doing.